"Always-On" Flags

Post by **L4m3r** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:53 pm

This is kinda out there, but I thought it was worth suggesting...

This option already exists for jumping and rico- an option that would otherwise be a flag is always enabled.

I think it would be great to have this option enabled for all flags by some sort of command. It would greatly increase the flexibility of the game and be great for a lot of mappers.

Just think, this "underwater" concept that everyone has talked about could be easily done by enabling an always-on WG flag... and tanks could continue to pick up other flags.

Instead of littering the map with L flags, the "laser tag" servers could just have L turned on.

The list goes on. Obviously, some hierarchy would have to be set up in case someone tried to enable, say, L and SB simultaneously, but otherwise flags could be used in combination without many problems.

Thoughts?

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:59 pm

Sounds quite good actually...

AlliedArmour · Post by **AlliedArmour** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:01 pm

I like that idea - would be nice to have sometimes.

Hannibal · Post by **Hannibal** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:30 pm

This is the missing piece to my underwater idea!..go l4!

this is the underwater idea of mine...
http://my.bzflag.org/bb/viewtopic.php?t=3697

JeffM · Post by **JeffM** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:02 pm

you can't have more then one flag effect at a time in the current code. Effects are tied to flags.

How would you have everyone have lazer? it is a shot effect. How would it work with other shot effects. We only have one fire button, and no way to swap shots, so how would you know if you wanted to fire a GM or L if you picked up the GM flag?

Tim has said no more then 1 flag per tank.

Toastline · Post by **Toastline** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:57 pm

JeffM2501 wrote:We only have one fire button, and no way to swap shots, so how would you know if you wanted to fire a GM or L if you picked up the GM flag?

Therein lies the use of the flag hierarchy idea posted earlier in this thread.

The laser effect, being set by the server, would take precendence over the GM effect. At least, I think that was the idea...

AlliedArmour · Post by **AlliedArmour** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:04 pm

And, you could just override any other shot fx with the server laser.

Post by **L4m3r** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:05 pm

Toastline wrote:
JeffM2501 wrote:We only have one fire button, and no way to swap shots, so how would you know if you wanted to fire a GM or L if you picked up the GM flag?
Therein lies the use of the flag hierarchy idea posted earlier in this thread.

The laser effect, being set by the server, would take precendence over the GM effect. At least, I think that was the idea...

If laser was always on, and a player picked up a GM flag, they would then have GM shots.

Again, this is similar to the idea of jumping and rico. On a server with jumping, all the tanks basically have a jumping flag along with whatever they're carrying- but everyone can jump, so they playing field is still (relatively) level.

It would obviously entail some significant changes to both the client and BZFS, so it's not like one would expect it to be slated for the next release... I'd just like to see it considered as one of the things for the next "major" revision of BZFlag.

JeffM · Post by **JeffM** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:36 pm

jump has it's own controll
rico is applicable to allmost every shot.

these 2 features are designed to be combined. They just also work as flags.

This dosnt' mean that all posible flags would work as server options. some just don't make sense when combined.

what if you had GM and L "allways on" how would it know what to shoot? What if you had Left Turn only allways on, and picked up Right Turn only?

You are not describing anyting new, people have asked for default flag effects many times.

There are many things that would have to be worked out in how things were combined. There woudl also need to be many code changes to support this. There are designs that would allow this and other neat features, but the need some playablity design and some real thought.

AlliedArmour · Post by **AlliedArmour** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:38 pm

But Laser isn't like left turn or anything like that - it's not like there is a counterpart - only there would have to be a cloaking provision.

Hannibal · Post by **Hannibal** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:41 pm

jeff, you have many good points. im torn over this one...

JeffM · Post by **JeffM** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:50 pm

AlliedArmour
so you are JUST saying have laser? not any flag?

why laser and not something generic?

AlliedArmour · Post by **AlliedArmour** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:52 pm

Well, Laser was the one in direct question.

Post by **L4m3r** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:26 pm

JeffM2501 wrote:jump has it's own controll
rico is applicable to allmost every shot.

these 2 features are designed to be combined. They just also work as flags.

This dosnt' mean that all posible flags would work as server options. some just don't make sense when combined.

what if you had GM and L "allways on" how would it know what to shoot? What if you had Left Turn only allways on, and picked up Right Turn only?

You are not describing anyting new, people have asked for default flag effects many times.

There are many things that would have to be worked out in how things were combined. There woudl also need to be many code changes to support this. There are designs that would allow this and other neat features, but the need some playablity design and some real thought.

I know.

for the conflicting combinations, again, there has to be an "order" of flags in case that happens, say, L takes precedence over GM.

Likewise, a held flag would logically take precedence over a server-enabled flag.

I understand that it would be a major change. What I would really like to see is an option for WG... but it just seems that it would make more sense to add to the versatility of the game and see if everything could be added in.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:50 pm

JeffM2501: I don't mean sound disrespectful, but it seems you'r comments are answered by L4m3rs posts.

JeffM2501 wrote:How would you have everyone have lazer? it is a shot effect. How would it work with other shot effects. We only have one fire button, and no way to swap shots, so how would you know if you wanted to fire a GM or L if you picked up the GM flag?

You'r argument here makes little sense.
As it is now, you have normal shots, and when you pick up a GM flag, what do you fire? We only have one fire button, and no way to swap shots, so how would you know if you wanted to fire a GM or a normal shot if you picked up the GM flag?
So what is different if you can set the server that NormalShots are now infact Lasers, or SuperBullets, as opposed to plain bullets...?

JeffM2501 wrote:Tim has said no more then 1 flag per tank.

We don't suggest multiple flags, we suggest that some (possibly all) flags could become options that you can set with bzfs, the same way you can run a server with -j and +r if you want...
By this logic you are saying that running a server with -j and +f GM{#} is enabling players to have 2 flags, the jump flag and the GM flag?

JeffM2501 wrote:jump has it's own controll
rico is applicable to allmost every shot.
these 2 features are designed to be combined. They just also work as flags.

Yes, and L4m3r is requesting that the other flag's can be "designed to be combined". He never said it would be easy...

JeffM2501 wrote:This dosnt' mean that all posible flags would work as server options. some just don't make sense when combined.
what if you had GM and L "allways on" how would it know what to shoot? What if you had Left Turn only allways on, and picked up Right Turn only?

Then you would need bzfs to send out an error if you had a clash of these options.
For example, you would be allowed to have:
rico, jumping, gm and left-turn-only
all together. But not:
jumping and No-Jumping
or:
gm and laser
and so-on.

Again, I (and I believe L4m3r too) am (/are) just tossing the idea into the air. It would certainly allow maps to be more creative, and for us map-makers to make gm speficic maps, for example.

Teppic · Post by **Teppic** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:13 pm

JeffM2501 wrote:what if you had GM and L "allways on" how would it know what to shoot?

We have standard bolts always on, and it manages to work out to use gm shots if that is the flag the tank is holding. Yes, stupidity can lead to paradoxes in flag/permanent usage, just setup flags that don't conflict as options, and none of the shot flags can conflict as only 1 can be in use at any 1 time, and server options for shot can be specified with the specifier then parameter, so two shot types cannot be set as permanent at the same time, it's not rocket science.

JeffM · Post by **JeffM** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 10:27 pm

standard shots are the default, like somone else posted there is an order, it's just a 2 level order, shots and flags. We don't have an order for all flags.

we've talked about making all the flag effects into simply "status" modifyers. but there never was a clean way that everyone agreed to for the "order" on shots.

One person says GM is last, another says laser is last. It really is a personal prefrence thing.

sure anything is posible. Sure having more then one would be fun. But it will also masivly change gameplay and make it much more complex.

I'd like to see bad flag effects be able to be tied to shots, so you could have a shot that makes who ever you hit have left turn only and the like. Same for zones that applied tiny, or reverse controlls.

cbg, I know you didn't mean multiple flags, I was saying the example of other requests that would give multiple flag effects. This is a request that has similar conciquences to this request.

Anything is posible, andything can be coded. just asking for laser is a little limiting, as we've seen somone here allready wants WG too. Who's to say what else somone wants. You can't design features just by doing them one at a time. The feature you want at the core is to have more effects on a tank, so that needs to be discused and thought about in ALL posibilitys. Jumping and Rico worked out. Maybe Laser will too, just like wings would, but all things must be considered, or the code and game becomes just a hodge podge of random features.

as I say, this isn't a new request, it's been around for a very long time.

Post by **L4m3r** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 7:05 am

JeffM2501 wrote:Anything is posible, andything can be coded. just asking for laser is a little limiting, as we've seen somone here allready wants WG too. Who's to say what else somone wants. You can't design features just by doing them one at a time. The feature you want at the core is to have more effects on a tank, so that needs to be discused and thought about in ALL posibilitys. Jumping and Rico worked out. Maybe Laser will too, just like wings would, but all things must be considered, or the code and game becomes just a hodge podge of random features.

Laser was just an example. actually, I think it could be fun to play on a server with Wide Angle, also, but again, this is just an idea.

The "random hodge podge" problem is part of the reason I think that my suggestion would be helpful; having all flags as server options would be more organized code-wise in the long run than adding several flags independently, or so I would think.

The idea is out there, so that's enough. I'm not part of the dev team, so I'm obviously not in a position to influence the direction BZFlag takes. Just my two cents.